oneidabows.net

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T10:40:26-05:00

Mark wrote:

Also, keep in mind that even though a bolt may only be 20 or 22", it may also weigh the same as a full length arrow for a compound because the bolts general have more GPI. Barnett recommends total weight of ~450 grains for their faster crossbows and ~425 for their average speed crossbows. My full length 31" arrows for my SE are 430 grains. Effective range would theoretically be the same.

Well, there is an apparent difference between Barnett and Horton Crossbows! When I had and shot my' Horton Hawk SL 150 pound Crossbow, it shot 20 inch Easton Powerbolts with flat nocks, inserts and 100 grain broadheads.

20" x 10.5 grains per inch + 37 grains for flat nocks + 43 grain insert + 100 grain broadhead = 390 grains

I can use the same bolts for my' Horton TR Explorer 175 pound Crossbow but have to use the moon nocks which are 12 grains each and 125 grain broadheads. Funny but the total weight is identical!

20" x 10.5 grains per inch + 12 grains for moon nocks + 43 grain insert + 125 grain broadhead = 390 grains

This is quite a difference compared to a 430 grain total weight for a 31 inch arrow! Also, unlike objects of different shapes where length may not be a factor, KE's effect on an arrow or crossbow bolt which is a straight...hollow Aluminum or Carbon rod or tube, is not only a factor of mass but also a factor of it's length since the KE is transferred along it's entire length. I am not sure how KE comes into play considering the diameter of a straight...hollow rod or tube but I am sure that there is some effect and calculation for it!

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:40 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T09:41:27-05:00

The comparisons that have been made on both sides are very good ones. It is true that a crossbow bolt has great KE at the start of the shot and true that the down range KE is much less. The one thing I like to compare a crossbow to as far as KE is a pistol is sand. If you have ever shot a pistol into a sand bag you know that it will not pass through. But if you shoot an arrow at the same sand bag the arrow passes almost all the way through. The same thing happens when you compare bolts and arrows. I also agree with OBwon on the accuracy of crossbows. In the right hands they can be Robinhood accurate. A friend of mine has 3 bolts stacked from his crossbow at 40 yds. Now remember he did this with only 3 arrows not dozens to get this result and practiced all the time with his crossbow and knew how to make it that accurate. The best thing that can be said about trying to compare the two is you can't because they are apples and figs.

Statistics: Posted by Bowbum — Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:41 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T05:03:20-05:00

You list several reasons why there is an unfair advantage with a crossbow. Exactly my point. I believe that there is an advantage, unfair or not.

Also, keep in mind that even though a bolt may only be 20 or 22", it may also weigh the same as a full length arrow for a compound because the bolts general have more GPI. Barnett recommends total weight of ~450 grains for their faster crossbows and ~425 for their average speed crossbows. My full length 31" arrows for my SE are 430 grains. Effective range would theoretically be the same.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:03 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T03:08:21-05:00

I am sorry that I am chiming in so late on the debate about the accuracy and ranges of a Bow (Compound, Recurve or Hybrid such as an Oneida Eagle bow)and Crossbow but felt that should have a say!

To compare shooting a crossbow from any kind of resting point (log, shooter's rest on a treestand or other) to shooting a bow off-hand, is an unfair comparison! Even off-hand, I grant you that a person can hold on a target or animal much longer with a crossbow than most bows but only to a point. Most crossbows are heavier than the majority of bows ever produced and if you have to hold one off-hand for a considerable amount of time, your accuracy with it will decrease considerably by the minute due to fatigue. Also, since that vast majority of crossbows are outfitted with some type of scope compared to the the vast majority of bows being outfitted with pin type sights or crosshair sights that use pins and a intersecting fluorescent wire, is another point of unfair comparison to accuracy. For most hunters and/or target shooters, there are many inherent advantages in using a scope versus a pin type sight. The accuracy of either a crossbow or bow is only as good as the person shooting it! I once knew an instinctive bow Shooter (Archer) that could shoot Aspirins out of the air with every shot, could center the Bullseye of a target mounted in the center of a tire that was rolled off of a hill and traveling at probably 40 mph or faster and make many more amazing shots and that was without the aid of any sight or scope whatsoever. How many folks do you know that could do the same with a crossbow with or without sights or a scope?

As far as the ranges for both, I feel that many (not all) bows but especially Oneida Eagle and C.P. Oneida Eagle bows have a greater range distance-wise and effective range than crossbows no matter how much poundage and speed the crossbows have. I agree with OBwon, that the drop is much greater on a bolt shot from a 280-300 fps second crossbow than an arrow shot from a bow with the same speed but disagree on the effective ranges. Sure a crossbow can impart a lot of KE to a bolt when shot but this KE diminishes rapidly due to the shorter length and less weight of a bolt and it's point (practice point or broadhead) since both the length and the weight are crucial in KE storage. The longer and heavier arrows shot in bows will store and exert KE for much longer, thus carrying the arrow much further at a flatter drop curve and have much more energy (knock down power) when it gets to a target at longer distances. Many years ago, I was drawing my' H-500 back after a long practice period and accidentally caught the release trigger on my cheek at about 3/4 draw. Being tired, I had drawn the bow with the bow very much elevated from vertical and the arrow traveled across my' property, across my neighbor's property and entered the woods more than 150 yards from my shooting stance. After entering the woods, the arrow could be heard pinging as it hit tree after tree after tree for several seconds. The arrow was armed with a broadhead and you talking about being paranoid, I sure was! Luckily, no one was up in the woods behind the neighbor's property that afternoon. Also, you ought to see what happens to an arrow that was shot 100 yards at a massive 8 point Buck but hits the edge of a runway at a small airport. An Accordion comes to mind and what once was a 33 inch arrow with broadhead became about a 22 inch arrow with the broadhead super-embedded in the arrow shaft! Although a crossbow bolt would more than likely make it that far, I doubt that there would be such a similar outcome!

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:08 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T21:00:07-05:00

Considering only KE, I can agree than the effective range of a crossbow verses and comparable compound is no different. However, when you consider other variables, like a persons form, the weight they have to hold back relative to let off, not being able to rest on something while you shoot, less than ideal weather conditions, etc., a crossbow can be more forgiving allowing greater accuracy and range over a persons capabilities with a compound.

Stating that a crossbow has greater range and accuracy may have technically been a misnomer on my part. But I think a person using a compound is potentially affected by any variables more than a person with a crossbow. Personally, I feel more confident of hitting my target with a crossbow verses a compound, and I think most people would feel that way too.

I see your points and certainly do respect your position as well.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T18:57:57-05:00

Hi Mark,

Quote:

I believe that the majority would be able to shoot a crossbow more accurately than a compound.

The truth here is the gain accuracy faster than a compound, the reason being it takes more knowledge of form to shoot a compound than it does a crossbow.

Quote:

If needed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to tune a bolt, similar to tuning an arrow

Sure you could but then you would take away from speed and flight. Remember to get 350 fps from a crossbow you need 200 pounds of pull, to get 350 fps from a compound you need 70 pounds on most newer bows. The flight part comes in the fact an arrow shot from a compound is allowed to flex (archers paradox) where if a bolt flexes on a deck then the odds of dryfire are almost 100%. Because crossbows are by design poor users of energy they may be only 67% efficent with developed energy compared to a compound at 80% and above. Thus bolts need to be short, stiff and forward weighted. Excalibur now recomends 150 gr broadheads for thier crossbows and knowing Bill the way I do it is not without reason.

Quote:

I shot my buddies Ten Point Titan crossbow and was shooting very respectable groups out to 40 yards. We did not shoot beyond that, but it seemed pretty darn flat shooting to me. It shot flatter than my 1989 Screaming Eagle shooting a 430 grain arrow @ 52lbs of draw. Therefore, arrow drop would be less of an issue for me anyway.

Again looking at the weights and speeds I agree with you on the premiss but to compare a new Ten Point which I have shot and an SE is apples and oranges. I disagree that you have to be an above average shooter to group at 40 yards. With regular practice an average shooter can achieve this and more.

On the issue of distancethe kE out of the bow on either using a 400 gr arrow at 280 to 300 fps is no different except one uses 70 pounds and the other needs between 150 to 200 pounds. So the effective ranges are no different.

The issue I take when I hear good folks telling people the distance on a crossbow exceeds that of a compound leads to all the missinformation and wives tails that are told about crossbows that give states and provinces reason to ban them. They are archery equipment and they give no unfair leg up over compounds or traditional equipment. Are they more friendly to our brothers and sisters with injury or handicap, yep.

But then I have seen a few archers that draw a compound with thier teeth that can kick my butt and many who think they are good.

Mark I respect your postition but I will also post the reasons my opinions differ.

Good posts to help people look at both sides.

Bob

Statistics: Posted by OBwon — Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:57 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T18:21:42-05:00

I have no problem admitting that I could be wrong and I certainly do not want to misstate. However, I can't say that I agree with you at this point.

I believe that the majority would be able to shoot a crossbow more accurately than a compound. Unlike a compound, you can rest a crossbow on something to shoot it, which aids in accuracy. If needed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to tune a bolt, similar to tuning an arrow. Also, a common multi dot/multi reticle scope, which typically comes on a modern crossbow, allows you to compensate for arrow drop. The only issue is judging distance, which is also an issue with a compound.

Personally, I can shoot a crossbow more accurately than a compound bow. I shot my buddies Ten Point Titan crossbow and was shooting very respectable groups out to 40 yards. We did not shoot beyond that, but it seemed pretty darn flat shooting to me. It shot flatter than my 1989 Screaming Eagle shooting a 430 grain arrow @ 52lbs of draw. Therefore, arrow drop would be less of an issue for me anyway. With my compound, I am able to easily hit the target at 40 yards, but certainly not group my shots. If you can shoot very good groups at significant distances, than you are probably a better than average shot (or maybe I am below average ). But, I think most people would be able to shoot more accurately with a crossbow.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T16:07:07-05:00

Quote:

crossbows have a greater range and accuracy

With all due respect to the moderator, this statement is not true. A compound bow is much more accurate and the ranges are the same.

The problem with crossbow bolts is they are very unbalanced (front heavy) than an arrow used in a compound bow.

Drop on a 280-300 fps crossbow at 40 yards is between 12 to 18 inches compared to compound at about half that.

Crossbows do give you a faster degree of accuracy without as much practice which you need to do in either case.

Bob

Statistics: Posted by OBwon — Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-09T21:31:06-05:00

That's too cool

Statistics: Posted by NuttyNative — Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-09T14:15:05-05:00

How about a design like this?

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:15 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-09T10:25:03-05:00

JOneida wrote:

An oneida crossbow would be awsome.

I agree!

I had some questions about my' Horton TR Explorer 175 and talked to one of the high-ups at Horton just a few days ago! I told him that they would have some real competition if Claude ever got to the point that he can no longer draw an Oneida Eagle or C.P. Oneida Eagle Bow. If that happened, I believe that a C.P. Oneida Eagle Crossbow would quickly be in the works. He said that they are not really concerned because so many States are making Crossbows legal for hunting, that they, Excalibur, Barnett, PSE and the other Crossbow Manufacturers cannot keep up with the demand. By the way, he stated that has owned and shot quite a few Oneida Eagle Bows over the years!

I still want to see C.P. come out with a couple of lines of Slingshots! One would be built to propel a fairly large Steel or Lead Ball and the other basically a Crossbow/Slingshot that would propel mini-bolts. With the Oneida Eaqle/C.P. Oneida Eagle Bow designs, I think that both of these could be lethal and made legal to hunt with in most States!

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:25 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-07T11:09:11-05:00

An oneida crossbow would be awsome.
Just havent seen or heard of one coming out yet.

Statistics: Posted by JOneida — Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:09 am

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-03T20:31:28-05:00

Is nobody else interested, or is it taboo to talk about it? Generally, crossbows have a greater range and accuracy and I wouldn't be too surprised to see a migration towards crossbows in states that allow them. To be honest, I am seriously considering one myself since it is now allowed. Don't get me wrong, I love my Oneida, even the 20 year old Screaming Eagle that it is. I just feel that it is a subject that merits some consideration. I'm sure if Oneida built one it would be one sweet and unique bow, just like all the other Oneidas.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:31 pm

Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-09-30T17:10:44-05:00

Back in the early 80's the boys in fulton built one it was awsome

Statistics: Posted by tree stand man — Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:10 pm

How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-09-30T16:10:22-05:00

Not sure about other states but as of last year, you are now permitted to hunt in Pennsylvania with a crossbow during archery season. I think it would be awesome for Oneida to think about making a crossbow. It could be a lever action and look like the bows, only with a shorter riser. I've never seen one like that!

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:10 pm